What does someone have to do that means no amount of remorse or effort to fix things will get you to forgive them? I don’t mean forgive and forget to the point where they can hurt you again. If someone repeatedly steals from you, forgiveness doesn’t mean putting them in a position where they can steal again.
I’m asking this purely out of curiosity. I’m just wondering what the attitude in my corner of the internet is.
That time my cousin and aunt made a scene the first night in the funeral home after my mom died. That’s irreparable because
- My mom died that fucking day, 2 years after my dad and they were supposed to all be close.
- It was due to my personal life (my soon-to-be-wife). To add some context: she is a foreigner so there is a lot of racism and a bit of classism.
- Her only living sister.
- It’s been 6 months and they haven’t contacted me, apologized or anything,
Don’t get me wrong. They are forgiven, but it hurts and it will hurt for the rest of my life so I don’t be able to ever open the door for them to come back into my life.
Granting forgiveness isn’t about them, it’s about you letting go of the hurt. It doesn’t mean things necessarily just go back to the way they were, it means things can move onto the next thing. It’s about taking that weight off your soul.
I see a lot of people letting their trauma define them. Let the shit drop and grow flowers. Easier said than done, but I think it’s still easier than not doing it.
If people are truly sorry and have taken steps to make sure that what they did will never happen again, they are eligible for forgiveness of anything.
It’s not about “forgiveness”, it’s about whether the mistakes can be undone.
Consider you accidentally insult somebody. That can be undone by apologizing.
What if you murder somebody? That can never be undone.
An apology doesn’t undo what you said any more than it brings someone back to life.
People do occasionally forgive murderers.
Not the victims, admittedly, but their families sometimes.
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The only time something would become unforgivable is if it were done with intentional malice or becomes a pattern of behavior. I’m willing to forgive quiet a bit, if the harm an action caused was not the intent. When it becomes the intent, such as physical violence or repeated trauma, that’s where I take a hard line and will not forgive. For less spectacular transgressions, repeat events are where things become unforgivable. I am willing to give grace on that more because I’m bad about not communicating to others how their actions hurt me, but if we’ve talked about how their behavior is a problem and they keep doing it? No sorry, we’re done.
For me, it’s really just a lack of actual remorse or effort to fix things. As long as they’re willing to demonstrate they recognize what they did and will work to be better (and it’s not a recurring pattern), we’re cool.
I think generally the same but there are extreme cases like murder where a person can atone all they want but shouldn’t necessarily be granted forgiveness.
To me it kinda have to depend on what kind of murder. Accidentally killed someone in self defence or as a victim of abuse? Yeah it can be forgiven. Going out of their way to kill someone or doing something that’s dangerous that result in killing someone? That’s unforgivable.
I hereby declare all of those unpremeditated types of murder should henceforth be referred to as “oopsies”.
Murder makes it sound so intentional in my mind.
The legal term for a lethal ‘oopsie’ is manslaughter I’m pretty sure.
Ive always found it a little strange that the law and insurance companies and human society in general is hyperfocused with finding a scapegoat to blame and persecute. People die sometimes just because of shit happening outside of anyone’s control but we’ve gotta dig for someone to pin blame on. Someones parachute didn’t work right that day? Its the parachute makers or the safety inspectors or the airplane owners who are to blame and not random unavoidable small chance of statistical failure rates. Gotta sue sue sue!
I always recommend reading the whole thing, because the work is incredible, but as to the ‘oopsie’ of manslaughter, it’s nice to read some of the theory behind it: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=185 (edit, oh god, the april fools thing is horrible. I’m sorry in advance)
As for the parachute thing, most of the time the cause of the accident is the skydiver. https://www.uspa.org/searchincidentreports It also makes a lot of sense to look closely at the manufacturers/inspectors/dropzone operators, because otherwise a lot of shit could get swept under the rug as just random occurrences. As in engineering, we must examine where we can fix what went wrong. I can understand the frustration that the process often is entangled with the courtroom, but if a jury, presented with evidence and arguments by both sides, comes to the conclusion that one party was injured due to another’s actions and restitution is deserved, who the fuck are we to gainsay that? I’m aware of many times where the “random unavoidable small chance of statistical failure rates” is settled on as the cause and there isn’t a settlement paid. Even talking about removing someone’s ability to seek remedy from the courts is an action that should be looked at with no small amount of suspicion.
The second time they do it. You get one chance to do some mild shit and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I don’t announce it but I keep tabs.
When they do the exact same thing after you already forgave them before.
Also when they were given plenty of warning before doing whatever they did.
So, for both cases, it’s when they show that they are OK with breaking your trust because they expect to be forgiven afterwards.
I’ve forgiven way too much to people than I should ever have in the first place and I allowed them to get away with too much than they ever should.
To me, someone or something becomes unforgivable, when you’ve presented them perfect opportunities or chances to make up for their fuck up. Continual and repetitious fuck ups, really sets in stone how not-so-apologetic someone is that has made the mistakes. Because in come the excuses, in come the sob stories, in come the laundry list of reasons .etc
It becomes too much, especially if someone fucks something up for you or someone else in a colossal way. These days, if you want to be sorry for something, you don’t fucking do it again. That’s all and it depends on what it is.
Probably dishonesty. Coworker threw away thousands of dollars worth of my department’s equipment and then lied to me about it. I know she was just repeating her boss, but she knew it was a lie. I’ll hold a grudge against both of those bitches forever!
Two former friends hit on my husband - not just flirty, pretty seriously with an expectation of more. They’re both out forever!
Things that betray trust are very hard for me to let go. Theft, backstabbing, lies, etc. If I can’t trust you, I can’t hang out with you.
I’m really glad you at least partially qualified what you mean by forgiveness. Or at least what you do not mean by it. The type of forgiveness I think you’re trying to suggest is more of an internal process. It’s not really about the other person at all. For example, there are some family members of murder victims who say they have forgiven the killer. They are not saying the killer deserves to go free. They’re just saying they don’t want to carry that hatred through the rest of their lives. By that definition, I don’t think any of us know what we might be able to let go of.
When the same attempts to set healthy boundaries with that person are ignored repeatedly. Sure, give them a chance to try and adjust their behavior if the relationship is otherwise valuable.
But after you are sure that you have been consistent and clear for a reasonable amount of time and the boundaries still get invaded?
Bye, Felicia.
If they go out of their way to hurt you, or are so indifferent about you that they hurt you in the process of doing something else and decide they don’t care.
People who value you and your feelings so little that they would do either are not worth keeping around, and certainly aren’t worth your effort emotionally to be able to forgive
Totally agree on this - I have forgiven a lot of shit in my life but the one thing that has truly hurt me is when someone I cared about was offended by my methods of expressing concern to them about their behavior, and they retaliated by trying to get my partner to leave me.
Despite the fact that it was a laughable attempt, the intention to actually hurt me, not just accidental toe-stepping or expression of frustration, is what drew a line for me.
I will forgive unintentional damage followed by remorse, I will forgive outbursts and emotional interaction, but actively trying to hurt someone is the behavior of an adversary.
When criticism of the act gets enough likes on Lemmy and/or Reddit—that’s when I know what to think.
