EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.”
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter. A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.
Sorry for the late response, I only have access to this account at work.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
No worries, you haven’t. A little bit of push back to my ideas is honestly something I find motivating. Usually other people grow tired of it.
You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society
You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
My point wasn’t that I did not personally like the responsibilities. I shouldn’t have used “expect me” because that implies this is more personal than it is (my bad). Its that I resent that they exist at all for anyone. Further, that we live in a society that wants individuals forcefully born within it to sacrifice themselves for said society, and self imposed exile is not an escape from this injustice. My individual choices (lacking the power to change things on a society level) cannot permit a true escape from that.
Now, extrapolating this to an actual actionable belief to today’s world would be that I think society should operate as if it serves each individual, not that individuals ought to serve society by default. And we have the technology and logistical capacity to do that.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
It means that no individual can be held fully responsible for their actions and we should structure society purely around consequences, like harm reduction and maximizing contentment.
The results of this belief in my own personal life, I generally have held that it is irrational to hate someone and for a long while that gave me a lot of patience with people I knew for their transgressions or moral failures.
Admittedly, I’ve faltered in my patience as of late due to the state of the world. A more emotionally hedonistic attitude has taken hold in me.
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.
Lots of debate and research regarding philosophy, resulting in a lot of critical thinking happened to me. A ruthless desire to get to the truth of reality, no matter how much it hurts.
If I were to guess if anything emotional fueled those desires, it was a desire to feel self worth. I thought I was an idiot for most of my early life and thought everyone else around me had a grip on practical life things. That I would have to fake my way through life and perpetually be in a state of imposter syndrome. Tends to make you prefer spending all your time reading and debating on the internet. (and playing video games)
After a long period of harsh self judgement and self loathing over being stupid, I realized most other people were somehow worse. So now I’m a terrified and alienated egotistical autist. I’d rather be the village idiot that I thought I was.
EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.
Sorry for the late response, I only have access to this account at work.
No worries, you haven’t. A little bit of push back to my ideas is honestly something I find motivating. Usually other people grow tired of it.
My point wasn’t that I did not personally like the responsibilities. I shouldn’t have used “expect me” because that implies this is more personal than it is (my bad). Its that I resent that they exist at all for anyone. Further, that we live in a society that wants individuals forcefully born within it to sacrifice themselves for said society, and self imposed exile is not an escape from this injustice. My individual choices (lacking the power to change things on a society level) cannot permit a true escape from that.
Now, extrapolating this to an actual actionable belief to today’s world would be that I think society should operate as if it serves each individual, not that individuals ought to serve society by default. And we have the technology and logistical capacity to do that.
It means that no individual can be held fully responsible for their actions and we should structure society purely around consequences, like harm reduction and maximizing contentment.
The results of this belief in my own personal life, I generally have held that it is irrational to hate someone and for a long while that gave me a lot of patience with people I knew for their transgressions or moral failures.
Admittedly, I’ve faltered in my patience as of late due to the state of the world. A more emotionally hedonistic attitude has taken hold in me.
Lots of debate and research regarding philosophy, resulting in a lot of critical thinking happened to me. A ruthless desire to get to the truth of reality, no matter how much it hurts.
If I were to guess if anything emotional fueled those desires, it was a desire to feel self worth. I thought I was an idiot for most of my early life and thought everyone else around me had a grip on practical life things. That I would have to fake my way through life and perpetually be in a state of imposter syndrome. Tends to make you prefer spending all your time reading and debating on the internet. (and playing video games)
After a long period of harsh self judgement and self loathing over being stupid, I realized most other people were somehow worse. So now I’m a terrified and alienated egotistical autist. I’d rather be the village idiot that I thought I was.