It’s really weird to see people in the US from both the left and the right protect the 2nd amendment and see it as some sort of mechanism to protect against authoritarianism. In fact, weird is putting it lightly - it’s actually kinda insane.
I’ll spare you the whole debate format because I don’t think there is any real arguing with the science and statistics behind the mass spread and use of guns in the US. I also don’t think there is any stopping the gun culture in the current paradigm because the dogma behind it has been parrotted and regurgated so much that it’s basically part of the nation’s psyche.
Guns only matter as much as the ideas of the people carrying them. Most guns in the US are not used for self-defence or to protect against government overreach, are they? When it comes down to it those are not the real reasonS why most people buy and use guns, are they? They sure make it easy though, not just to buy and use but also to rationalize and justify violence and killings.
Fighting fire with fire creates an inferno. You’re not going to put out the fire with more fire. You’re just gonna make it worse and feel self-righteous while doing it, creating an insidious cycle of violence.
It’s the 21st century. The name of the game is cognitive warfare and liberty-loving people are losing badly. Guns won’t change that.
I was following your argument right up until this point. I never thought I’d be in a position to defend guns in any way, but here we are.
Guns only matter as much as the ideas of the people carrying them. Most guns in the US are not used for self-defence or to protect against government overreach, are they?
I think answer you’re begging for here is “crime” or “violence against other humans”, but realistically I think most guns in the USA are use for putting holes in sheet of paper from a distance for practice or sport. The second most used reason is likely for sport hunting of animals.
I fully acknowledge there is absolutely problems with gun crime and violence against other humans, but as a percentage of gun use its likely much smaller than sport shooting and hunting in the USA.
When it comes down to it those are not the real reasonS why most people buy and use guns, are they? They sure make it easy though, not just to buy and use but also to rationalize and justify violence and killings.
Okay, you’ve now switched to combining “buying” and “using” as one measure. I don’t have any statistics to back this up, but I’m betting lots of guns are purchased for personal defense and perhaps never fired (even for practice) or only a few times (again for practice). My grandfather (WWII vet) carried a revolver in his car and to the best of my knowledge never fired or even brandished it. That was a different era though. Fifty years ago school shootings weren’t a thing. My father-in-law also had a pistol that he kept in the house for over two decades and never fired it once. In his old age, he lived way out in the country and occasionally we’d find out he got it out because he heard something that scared him outside (rural thefts weren’t unheard of in his area), but again he never even showed it to another person as a means of intimidation. Neither of these men were criminals, violent or otherwise.
Again, I’m not taking away any of the weight of gun violence in the USA especially when some of its victims are the most innocent such as children. I don’t believe what we have today is sustainable as a society.
The reason I’m going into all of this explanation, is that, while gun violence is absolutely a problem, painting every gun owner as a violent criminal looking to kill people weakens your argument immensely. Even if the solution that ends up being implemented is ending all gun ownership, its important to be honest with where the problem lies and what solutions have been explored so we know how to get there.
I think answer you’re begging for here is “crime” or “violence against other humans”
Truthfully, I was thinking more along the lines of “identity”, “entertainment” and “machoism”. And while these often unfortunately do interesect with “crime” and “violence”, I wouldn’t think they were the primary reasons because I don’t think that would be reflective of most people’s actual attitudes and behaviours (regardless of nationality). I did not mean to imply that the dominant reason is “crime”, lean on the stereotype of gun violence in the US or paint every gun owner as a psychopath. I can see how that might have been construed based on the way I wrote it. But I don’t actually believe in any that.
My main point was that the actual reasons for both owning and using guns are not related to the reasoning of the 2nd amendment eventhough it is the law that makes all of this possible. And how could they be related - that reasoning is centuries old and simply nomlonger valid due to the way power is exercised in the 21st century.
The discussion of whether the reasons have more to do with crime or entertainment is an interesting one that I didn’t really actually mean to touch on in my first comment because its kind of a side point to the main point I was making (though still obviously important). As you point out, and this seems to be corraborated by Pewpew, most Americans use their guns for the stated reasons of “go shooting” or “go hunting”.
Interestingly, you can hunt or go to a shooting range in most other developed countries and the fact they don’t have an extensive right to bear arms enshrined in their constitution doesn’t seem to be limiting that entertainment value. Nor has it impacted the ability of people in those countries to fight against tyranny. What it has done, however, is significantly limit gun violence, to the point where there are several hundred times more gun-related deaths in the US compared to Western European countries. Not even gonna mention countries with even tougher gun laws like Japan - the difference is staggering - in the thousands of times, at least according to the University of Washington.
Culture and ideology are the primary words here, I think. As the epistemological crisis deepens, I fear ideological violence will continue to rise, and guns will be a very combustible ingredient in that dynamic.
Again, did not mean to paint all gun owners as looney criminals. But the relationship to the culture of power is most definayely there and we should very much be afriad of those who use the notions of self-defence and democracy as a guise to enact their power fantasies, or even worse - as a tool of ideology and politics.
So says the other side too
I’d rather be in a civil war than Republicans having access to minorities that can’t fight back.
2A is needed.
In a perfect world it wouldn’t be needed, but this isn’t a perfect world.
It’s really weird to see people in the US from both the left and the right protect the 2nd amendment and see it as some sort of mechanism to protect against authoritarianism. In fact, weird is putting it lightly - it’s actually kinda insane.
I’ll spare you the whole debate format because I don’t think there is any real arguing with the science and statistics behind the mass spread and use of guns in the US. I also don’t think there is any stopping the gun culture in the current paradigm because the dogma behind it has been parrotted and regurgated so much that it’s basically part of the nation’s psyche.
Guns only matter as much as the ideas of the people carrying them. Most guns in the US are not used for self-defence or to protect against government overreach, are they? When it comes down to it those are not the real reasonS why most people buy and use guns, are they? They sure make it easy though, not just to buy and use but also to rationalize and justify violence and killings.
Fighting fire with fire creates an inferno. You’re not going to put out the fire with more fire. You’re just gonna make it worse and feel self-righteous while doing it, creating an insidious cycle of violence.
It’s the 21st century. The name of the game is cognitive warfare and liberty-loving people are losing badly. Guns won’t change that.
I was following your argument right up until this point. I never thought I’d be in a position to defend guns in any way, but here we are.
I think answer you’re begging for here is “crime” or “violence against other humans”, but realistically I think most guns in the USA are use for putting holes in sheet of paper from a distance for practice or sport. The second most used reason is likely for sport hunting of animals.
I fully acknowledge there is absolutely problems with gun crime and violence against other humans, but as a percentage of gun use its likely much smaller than sport shooting and hunting in the USA.
Okay, you’ve now switched to combining “buying” and “using” as one measure. I don’t have any statistics to back this up, but I’m betting lots of guns are purchased for personal defense and perhaps never fired (even for practice) or only a few times (again for practice). My grandfather (WWII vet) carried a revolver in his car and to the best of my knowledge never fired or even brandished it. That was a different era though. Fifty years ago school shootings weren’t a thing. My father-in-law also had a pistol that he kept in the house for over two decades and never fired it once. In his old age, he lived way out in the country and occasionally we’d find out he got it out because he heard something that scared him outside (rural thefts weren’t unheard of in his area), but again he never even showed it to another person as a means of intimidation. Neither of these men were criminals, violent or otherwise.
Again, I’m not taking away any of the weight of gun violence in the USA especially when some of its victims are the most innocent such as children. I don’t believe what we have today is sustainable as a society.
The reason I’m going into all of this explanation, is that, while gun violence is absolutely a problem, painting every gun owner as a violent criminal looking to kill people weakens your argument immensely. Even if the solution that ends up being implemented is ending all gun ownership, its important to be honest with where the problem lies and what solutions have been explored so we know how to get there.
Truthfully, I was thinking more along the lines of “identity”, “entertainment” and “machoism”. And while these often unfortunately do interesect with “crime” and “violence”, I wouldn’t think they were the primary reasons because I don’t think that would be reflective of most people’s actual attitudes and behaviours (regardless of nationality). I did not mean to imply that the dominant reason is “crime”, lean on the stereotype of gun violence in the US or paint every gun owner as a psychopath. I can see how that might have been construed based on the way I wrote it. But I don’t actually believe in any that.
My main point was that the actual reasons for both owning and using guns are not related to the reasoning of the 2nd amendment eventhough it is the law that makes all of this possible. And how could they be related - that reasoning is centuries old and simply nomlonger valid due to the way power is exercised in the 21st century.
The discussion of whether the reasons have more to do with crime or entertainment is an interesting one that I didn’t really actually mean to touch on in my first comment because its kind of a side point to the main point I was making (though still obviously important). As you point out, and this seems to be corraborated by Pewpew, most Americans use their guns for the stated reasons of “go shooting” or “go hunting”. Interestingly, you can hunt or go to a shooting range in most other developed countries and the fact they don’t have an extensive right to bear arms enshrined in their constitution doesn’t seem to be limiting that entertainment value. Nor has it impacted the ability of people in those countries to fight against tyranny. What it has done, however, is significantly limit gun violence, to the point where there are several hundred times more gun-related deaths in the US compared to Western European countries. Not even gonna mention countries with even tougher gun laws like Japan - the difference is staggering - in the thousands of times, at least according to the University of Washington.
Culture and ideology are the primary words here, I think. As the epistemological crisis deepens, I fear ideological violence will continue to rise, and guns will be a very combustible ingredient in that dynamic.
Again, did not mean to paint all gun owners as looney criminals. But the relationship to the culture of power is most definayely there and we should very much be afriad of those who use the notions of self-defence and democracy as a guise to enact their power fantasies, or even worse - as a tool of ideology and politics.