You didn’t answer the question. How does it end exactly? Let’s think this through, you get up in arms agains the republicans kill them all and then what comes after? Are you implying that the US should only have one party and one ideology or what is the implication here? Because from my point of view it seems that one way or another this does not end in a liberal democracy. We’re talking about persecuting people based on their political association here so it needs to be clear that there’s a plan for what comes after.
This all sounds like MAGA wishful thinking toward Democrats. I have NEVER heard a Dem call for the deaths of all Republicans, but I have heard Republicans call for the elimination of all Liberals MANY times.
MAGA, as a political entity needs to be abolished. It is a treasonous terrorist hate group, and should be prohibited. It’s leaders should be prosecuted for crimes they have committed or facilitated, and anyone who was involved in promoting, planning, launching, or participating in the Jan 6 Insurrection should be prohibited from ever holding office .
Nobody is calling for the elimination of the Republican party, just for it to return to being a responsible party who cares about America, instead of being a tool of the Sociopathic Oligarchs. If you are hearing that Dems are calling for the murder and elimination of all Republicans and their party, then you are just hearing bullshit from the Conservative Propaganda Machine. No such suggestion has been made, nor would it ever be discussed.
Frankly I’ve seen the same rhetoric from both MAGAtards and Progressives. Look:
This all sounds like Democrat wishful thinking toward Republicans. I have NEVER heard a Republican call for the deaths of all Democrats, but I have heard Democrats call for the elimination of all Conservatives MANY times.
The Democratic Party, as a political entity needs to be abolished. It is a treasonous terrorist hate group, and should be prohibited. Its leaders should be prosecuted for crimes they have committed or facilitated, and anyone who was involved in promoting, planning, launching, or participating in the 2020 BLM riots should be prohibited from ever holding office.
Nobody is calling for the elimination of the Democratic party, just for it to return to being a responsible party who cares about America, instead of being a tool of WEF and George Soros. If you are hearing that Republicans are calling for the murder and elimination of all Democrats and their party, then you are just hearing bullshit from the Liberal Propaganda Machine. No such suggestion has been made, nor would it ever be discussed.
Spend like 10 minutes in r/conservative or r/askconservatives and you’ll see a few posts that sound exactly like that. Exactly like that. I don’t wanna bring up horshoe theory because it’s not exactly true but godamn do both sides work hard to make it look like it is.
inb4 are you implying we need to roll over
No. Not at all. But I also don’t think that saying that once dems are in power they need to go scorched earth and persecute political opponents. This just continues the ever escalation of political division until killing each other becomes the only viable option because you will clearly not be able to coexist in society.
I don’t think you’re being honest but just in case, let me help you. The implication is, this country has a fascist rot that needs to be excised before it kills us all.
Once the fascist party pretending to be conservative gets out of the way, the conservative party pretending to be liberal can take its place.
Then we might actually have a shot at a true progressive movement in this country.
I’m being honest. I just don’t understand how you would make the distinction because they are all republicans. What about tankies, where would they fit in these? They are leftist but fascists all the same imo. Would Christians be killed as well? What about Muslims which have even more restrictive views on civil rights?
Where do you draw the line between who is defined as a fascist or isn’t I guess is the question, and how would you be able to tell them apart from a regular conservative?
Logistically this ends with everyone who identifies as republican getting killed. It’s the same situation with Trump and immigrants, he wants them all out but he can’t get them all out with due process because it’s impossible to do so, so the only way to get what he wants is to break every law in the process and send them to foreign gulags.
Either we believe in the democratic process or not. And let’s be clear, the democratic process means that if a majority votes for a tyrant, then democracy is working as intended. Using violence to avert such a result is inherently anti democratic. You can argue that it is the morally correct thing, which is arguably true, but we must also suspend the pretense that you believe in true democracy.
It’s also the kind of rhetoric that has given Trump the fuel to convince the masses that there’s a “radical left” plotting to destroy the country. Because this sort of idea does end with the destruction of the country and it is not clear to me that it ends in a liberal democracy and not in an illiberal democracy or a dictatorship of some kind.
Either we believe in the democratic process or not. And let’s be clear, the democratic process means that if a majority votes for a tyrant, then democracy is working as intended. Using violence to avert such a result is inherently anti democratic.
Bottom line: democracy has limits when it comes to groups that would dismantle democracy, even if they are voted in, because if elected, no one would ever have a voice again. Likewise, a free and fair society must be intolerant of intolerance.
I don’t think that free, fair society is necessarily equivalent with democracy. Democracy is simply the rule of the majority, and the majority can certainly choose to live in a society that is unfair and free except for a few. In fact that is mostly how democracy has operated for most of it’s history. You can also impose a free , fair society from the top down but it would require the ever elusive Philosopher King.
I’m just saying that if you’re willing to strike first against a political faction in what is still a free and democratic country, you’re better off not pretending that democracy is your North Star. Maybe it’s equality, or freedom, or fairness or any other ideal. But whatever the ideal is if you are willing to overturn violently what has been decided peacefully through elections, then you’re not a true believer of democracy.
I’m not the person you were originally replying to, but I think laws should be put in place to prevent extremist parties from being put on the ballot at all. Germany has the right idea.
But failing that, if a democratically-elected government comes to power and then proceeds to dismantle democracy, then it is in the most literal sense a tyrannical government, and tyrants must be overthrown by any means necessary.
I agree. It is a good mechanism to have though I worry that it can be abused.
This is why I always end up going to a more libertarian view of things. When there are rules, especially rules that are quite literally designed to be weapons, then there is a big risk for abuse. That’s why state sovereignty for me is such an important component of avoiding the bullshit Trump is (unsuccessfully I might add) trying to pull off. If the states are strong, then no tyrant can really fuck with them. Of course this also runs the risk of tyranny forming within a state, but in that case I think there are mechanisms to combat it, like the other states could embargo it etc.
My hope is that dems can recognize this and become the party of state sovereignty, though I think that ship has sailed for both parties.
IMO the plan would be a complete rewrite of the political system. It’s clear that the current system is based purely on the honorsystem, and needs to be redone in a way that rewards multiple parties, with actual consequenses for the capitalowners whenever they commit a crime.
A revolution doesn’t have to end in just one ruling party or idealogy. It also doesn’t have to end with killing all republicans. The denazifying of Germany didn’t mean everyone who had supported the nazi party had to be killed. A lot of ressources were focused on reeducation instead, and so far, it seems to have worked really well. The hardliners who directly helped the fascists will obviously have to be punished for treason against the country’s democratic foundation, but that doesn’t mean everyone who voted for Trump has to be punished. Most people are just ignorant, brainwashed and scared, because they’ve been pumped full with disinformation for the last 50 years.
But the absolutely most important part of all this, is to remove the system that rewards corrupt politicians. If a politician is openly corrupt, openly works to undermine their voters’ interests, they’re still more likely to get reelected than be replaced, because the party decides who gets to run, and the voting options are so few, and when people are brainwashed like they are, they’d rather vote against their own interest, than vote for their percieved enemy. So how do you get rid of that?
Remove the overwhelming power from media that spreads disinformation by forcibly shutting it down, prosecuting the people in charge and the owners.
Reward multiple parties by reworking how many votes you need to be voted in, and drastically expanding representation. There are 100 senators. Norway has 169 elected officials in their “Stortinget” for their 5.52 million people. That’s 32662 people pr official compared to the USA’s 3,401,000 people pr senator. How this will work, I don’t know, but I’m sure we can find some welleducated political scientists who can figure out a way.
Fund smaller parties and set up debates that focus on inviting these smaller parties to give them a platform. In order to get funded and invited, you need a certain amount of signatures from potential voters. I’m not sure about the exact amount of signatures, but for the sake of arguement, let’s say half the amount of votes you’d need to get elected. This way smaller parties are guarenteed a platform to reach the voters.
I’m not going to write a whole manifesto here, so I’m going to stop here, but my point is, that this can absolutely end without rounding up anyone who doesn’t agree, and it can be fixed, but it needs a complete overhaul of the incredibly broken system in the USA, and it absolutely also needs hard punishment for the people who directly aided in the rise of fascism.
Then you see the real issue which is not that there are fascists in our society, in a liberal society those will always exist one way or another. The bigger issue is the bipartisan system. But I don’t think we need violence to get what you want. You need democrats that are not just corporate puppets. But the dems talk big about changing things and as soon as they get in power they work real hard to maintain the status quo.
You didn’t answer the question. How does it end exactly? Let’s think this through, you get up in arms agains the republicans kill them all and then what comes after? Are you implying that the US should only have one party and one ideology or what is the implication here? Because from my point of view it seems that one way or another this does not end in a liberal democracy. We’re talking about persecuting people based on their political association here so it needs to be clear that there’s a plan for what comes after.
This all sounds like MAGA wishful thinking toward Democrats. I have NEVER heard a Dem call for the deaths of all Republicans, but I have heard Republicans call for the elimination of all Liberals MANY times.
MAGA, as a political entity needs to be abolished. It is a treasonous terrorist hate group, and should be prohibited. It’s leaders should be prosecuted for crimes they have committed or facilitated, and anyone who was involved in promoting, planning, launching, or participating in the Jan 6 Insurrection should be prohibited from ever holding office .
Nobody is calling for the elimination of the Republican party, just for it to return to being a responsible party who cares about America, instead of being a tool of the Sociopathic Oligarchs. If you are hearing that Dems are calling for the murder and elimination of all Republicans and their party, then you are just hearing bullshit from the Conservative Propaganda Machine. No such suggestion has been made, nor would it ever be discussed.
Frankly I’ve seen the same rhetoric from both MAGAtards and Progressives. Look:
This all sounds like Democrat wishful thinking toward Republicans. I have NEVER heard a Republican call for the deaths of all Democrats, but I have heard Democrats call for the elimination of all Conservatives MANY times.
The Democratic Party, as a political entity needs to be abolished. It is a treasonous terrorist hate group, and should be prohibited. Its leaders should be prosecuted for crimes they have committed or facilitated, and anyone who was involved in promoting, planning, launching, or participating in the 2020 BLM riots should be prohibited from ever holding office.
Nobody is calling for the elimination of the Democratic party, just for it to return to being a responsible party who cares about America, instead of being a tool of WEF and George Soros. If you are hearing that Republicans are calling for the murder and elimination of all Democrats and their party, then you are just hearing bullshit from the Liberal Propaganda Machine. No such suggestion has been made, nor would it ever be discussed.
Spend like 10 minutes in r/conservative or r/askconservatives and you’ll see a few posts that sound exactly like that. Exactly like that. I don’t wanna bring up horshoe theory because it’s not exactly true but godamn do both sides work hard to make it look like it is.
No. Not at all. But I also don’t think that saying that once dems are in power they need to go scorched earth and persecute political opponents. This just continues the ever escalation of political division until killing each other becomes the only viable option because you will clearly not be able to coexist in society.
See, this mad-libs-style reversal of rhetoric doesn’t work because of pesky things like facts.
I don’t think you’re being honest but just in case, let me help you. The implication is, this country has a fascist rot that needs to be excised before it kills us all.
Once the fascist party pretending to be conservative gets out of the way, the conservative party pretending to be liberal can take its place.
Then we might actually have a shot at a true progressive movement in this country.
Fascism is incompatible with democracy.
I’m being honest. I just don’t understand how you would make the distinction because they are all republicans. What about tankies, where would they fit in these? They are leftist but fascists all the same imo. Would Christians be killed as well? What about Muslims which have even more restrictive views on civil rights?
Where do you draw the line between who is defined as a fascist or isn’t I guess is the question, and how would you be able to tell them apart from a regular conservative?
Logistically this ends with everyone who identifies as republican getting killed. It’s the same situation with Trump and immigrants, he wants them all out but he can’t get them all out with due process because it’s impossible to do so, so the only way to get what he wants is to break every law in the process and send them to foreign gulags.
Either we believe in the democratic process or not. And let’s be clear, the democratic process means that if a majority votes for a tyrant, then democracy is working as intended. Using violence to avert such a result is inherently anti democratic. You can argue that it is the morally correct thing, which is arguably true, but we must also suspend the pretense that you believe in true democracy.
It’s also the kind of rhetoric that has given Trump the fuel to convince the masses that there’s a “radical left” plotting to destroy the country. Because this sort of idea does end with the destruction of the country and it is not clear to me that it ends in a liberal democracy and not in an illiberal democracy or a dictatorship of some kind.
This is at best a deeply naive take.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Bottom line: democracy has limits when it comes to groups that would dismantle democracy, even if they are voted in, because if elected, no one would ever have a voice again. Likewise, a free and fair society must be intolerant of intolerance.
I don’t think that free, fair society is necessarily equivalent with democracy. Democracy is simply the rule of the majority, and the majority can certainly choose to live in a society that is unfair and free except for a few. In fact that is mostly how democracy has operated for most of it’s history. You can also impose a free , fair society from the top down but it would require the ever elusive Philosopher King.
I’m just saying that if you’re willing to strike first against a political faction in what is still a free and democratic country, you’re better off not pretending that democracy is your North Star. Maybe it’s equality, or freedom, or fairness or any other ideal. But whatever the ideal is if you are willing to overturn violently what has been decided peacefully through elections, then you’re not a true believer of democracy.
I’m not the person you were originally replying to, but I think laws should be put in place to prevent extremist parties from being put on the ballot at all. Germany has the right idea.
But failing that, if a democratically-elected government comes to power and then proceeds to dismantle democracy, then it is in the most literal sense a tyrannical government, and tyrants must be overthrown by any means necessary.
I agree. It is a good mechanism to have though I worry that it can be abused.
This is why I always end up going to a more libertarian view of things. When there are rules, especially rules that are quite literally designed to be weapons, then there is a big risk for abuse. That’s why state sovereignty for me is such an important component of avoiding the bullshit Trump is (unsuccessfully I might add) trying to pull off. If the states are strong, then no tyrant can really fuck with them. Of course this also runs the risk of tyranny forming within a state, but in that case I think there are mechanisms to combat it, like the other states could embargo it etc.
My hope is that dems can recognize this and become the party of state sovereignty, though I think that ship has sailed for both parties.
IMO the plan would be a complete rewrite of the political system. It’s clear that the current system is based purely on the honorsystem, and needs to be redone in a way that rewards multiple parties, with actual consequenses for the capitalowners whenever they commit a crime.
A revolution doesn’t have to end in just one ruling party or idealogy. It also doesn’t have to end with killing all republicans. The denazifying of Germany didn’t mean everyone who had supported the nazi party had to be killed. A lot of ressources were focused on reeducation instead, and so far, it seems to have worked really well. The hardliners who directly helped the fascists will obviously have to be punished for treason against the country’s democratic foundation, but that doesn’t mean everyone who voted for Trump has to be punished. Most people are just ignorant, brainwashed and scared, because they’ve been pumped full with disinformation for the last 50 years.
But the absolutely most important part of all this, is to remove the system that rewards corrupt politicians. If a politician is openly corrupt, openly works to undermine their voters’ interests, they’re still more likely to get reelected than be replaced, because the party decides who gets to run, and the voting options are so few, and when people are brainwashed like they are, they’d rather vote against their own interest, than vote for their percieved enemy. So how do you get rid of that?
I’m not going to write a whole manifesto here, so I’m going to stop here, but my point is, that this can absolutely end without rounding up anyone who doesn’t agree, and it can be fixed, but it needs a complete overhaul of the incredibly broken system in the USA, and it absolutely also needs hard punishment for the people who directly aided in the rise of fascism.
Then you see the real issue which is not that there are fascists in our society, in a liberal society those will always exist one way or another. The bigger issue is the bipartisan system. But I don’t think we need violence to get what you want. You need democrats that are not just corporate puppets. But the dems talk big about changing things and as soon as they get in power they work real hard to maintain the status quo.