What am I supposed to do about Russia’s side? I can only pressure my own government. If my government keeps giving Ukraine weapons and stopping peace talks, more Ukrainians and Russians will die in a meaningless war. It’s not fair to Ukrainians to lose part of the territory of their nation state because Russia invaded it, sure, but it’s also not fair to anyone that NATO wants to do brinkmanship against Russia and decided to fight a proxy war through Ukrainians. I don’t see how any of the points you’re bringing up are supposed to make anyone feel like peace in Ukraine is a bad thing.
Ohh I see. Let’s give Russia a piece, and they will stop for good. What about Crimea? Ups, they already took that and weren’t satiated. I guess we have to give all. Seems the humane thing to do.
I know you’re just lying to gain points, but I don’t think anybody would fall for that.
I never said they’d stop for good. They’ll keep opposing NATO as long as NATO is hostile to Russia, obviously. If you want to think of Russia like they’re just evil people who want more power or whatever Harry Potter model of the world then I’m sure that sounds really scary, but if you drop the good guys vs bad guys view of the world you’d understand that it’s not in anybody except imperialist’s interest for wars to keep going infinitely.
I agree with you it’s in nobodies interest to keep the wars going. But even you know Russia will attack again, and only want to have a weaker opponent later. It’s indeed on the interest of the imperialist aggressor that there’s no resistance.
It’s tiresome that non argument that the only way to stop is for Ukraine to surrender. That they are the ones that want war for defending. “I can only tell my country” my ass. You’re telling your opinion on the internet. I can tell Putin to go die on a trench if he wants war so much.
I love how you say this isn’t good vs evil, then basically say that Russia is justified because NATO is evil. So attack a non NATO country who they had previously attacked because that’s what good ones do.
Fucking hell the absolute degeneracy to even make this shit up.
It’s indeed on the interest of the imperialist aggressor that there’s no resistance.
What imperialist? What is imperialist about Russia?
It’s tiresome that non argument that the only way to stop is for Ukraine to surrender.
Are you under the impression that the war could end any other way? How is Ukraine going to turn it around and make Putin surrender when now they depend on Europe for arms and Europe has even less capacity to sustain Ukraine than the US did? They were steadily losing with the US fully supporting them.
I can tell Putin to go die on a trench if he wants war so much.
Yeah, I agree. No question there.
I love how you say this isn’t good vs evil, then basically say that Russia is justified because NATO is evil.
I never even said Russia was justified, I just explained the reason why they invaded. Like, we can at least agree that Russia didn’t just invade for no reason, right? They may be justified or not, I don’t know what your ethical framework is. I don’t think it matters whether any of us thinks it’s moral or not because nation states are amoral and unfeeling entities. The only thing that matters is power and who wields it; the power to stop Russian aggression is not held by the citizens of NATO countries, that’s my point. The power to stop NATO aggression, on the other hand, does fall on those of us who live within the NATO world (I mean, if you believe liberal democracy works, which it objectively doesn’t but that’s another discussion). So basically what I’m saying is that Russia won’t stop the war on NATO’s terms because Russia obviously will win by attrition anyway (at the cost of even more slaughter), so it’s ridiculous to suggest that Ukrainians should keep throwing themselves in the meat grinder for no other reason than to weaken Russia, a military objective that only matters to the ruling class of NATO countries. They should take the peace deal, put the guns down and go home.
Sounds like they need to be in the fucking ground, then.
Maybe in the Hague. I don’t entirely think it’s the fault of the average Russian solider, although I’m not sure what else could be done if they’re coming over to kill a bunch of people other than to kill them first. But yes, the people who are planning not to stop for good can certainly get stopped in other ways than them one day deciding they’re open to the idea.
No they won’t. They’re terrified of opposing NATO, which is why they react with the same “don’t you dare call the cops” mentality/reaction as an abusive husband does, whenever they think someone in their orbit might be thinking of getting protection from NATO.
Of course, the whole thing is stupidly counterproductive if the goal was for their neighbors to stay uninvolved with NATO. The sum result of their actions in Ukraine is that any country with half a brain (and uncorrupted leaders) anywhere near them is looking around for any and all security guarantees they could get from anyone. Which means NATO.
Tell the truth? Be open to talking to people who disagree with you, and be honest about where you got your own arguments, so that we can have a fact-based discussion? Nobody here is going to be in control of whether the war continues or not. We’re just talking about what happens, and to me it is offensive when someone comes in with a wild skewed narrative that serves the invader and oppressor. That doesn’t mean I think me arguing back is going to “do” anything, it’s just how I operate.
If my government keeps giving Ukraine weapons and stopping peace talks
They are absolutely not doing that. You may sincerely think that Russia somehow “wants peace” and those dastardly people-who-got-invaded are preventing them from packing their shit and going back across the border. But I think you at least owe it to other people in the comments here to have a real discussion about why you think the US is sabotaging peace talks, and hear out their reasons why they say they are absolutely not doing that.
What am I supposed to do about Russia’s side? I can only pressure my own government. If my government keeps giving Ukraine weapons and stopping peace talks, more Ukrainians and Russians will die in a meaningless war. It’s not fair to Ukrainians to lose part of the territory of their nation state because Russia invaded it, sure, but it’s also not fair to anyone that NATO wants to do brinkmanship against Russia and decided to fight a proxy war through Ukrainians. I don’t see how any of the points you’re bringing up are supposed to make anyone feel like peace in Ukraine is a bad thing.
Ohh I see. Let’s give Russia a piece, and they will stop for good. What about Crimea? Ups, they already took that and weren’t satiated. I guess we have to give all. Seems the humane thing to do.
I know you’re just lying to gain points, but I don’t think anybody would fall for that.
I never said they’d stop for good. They’ll keep opposing NATO as long as NATO is hostile to Russia, obviously. If you want to think of Russia like they’re just evil people who want more power or whatever Harry Potter model of the world then I’m sure that sounds really scary, but if you drop the good guys vs bad guys view of the world you’d understand that it’s not in anybody except imperialist’s interest for wars to keep going infinitely.
Wow, you drop the act very quick.
I agree with you it’s in nobodies interest to keep the wars going. But even you know Russia will attack again, and only want to have a weaker opponent later. It’s indeed on the interest of the imperialist aggressor that there’s no resistance.
It’s tiresome that non argument that the only way to stop is for Ukraine to surrender. That they are the ones that want war for defending. “I can only tell my country” my ass. You’re telling your opinion on the internet. I can tell Putin to go die on a trench if he wants war so much.
I love how you say this isn’t good vs evil, then basically say that Russia is justified because NATO is evil. So attack a non NATO country who they had previously attacked because that’s what good ones do.
Fucking hell the absolute degeneracy to even make this shit up.
“Previously attacked” by honoring a referendum almost universally supported by the people in Crimea?
But I suppose you know better than the people that actually live there? This is the chauvinism we are calling you out on.
What imperialist? What is imperialist about Russia?
Are you under the impression that the war could end any other way? How is Ukraine going to turn it around and make Putin surrender when now they depend on Europe for arms and Europe has even less capacity to sustain Ukraine than the US did? They were steadily losing with the US fully supporting them.
Yeah, I agree. No question there.
I never even said Russia was justified, I just explained the reason why they invaded. Like, we can at least agree that Russia didn’t just invade for no reason, right? They may be justified or not, I don’t know what your ethical framework is. I don’t think it matters whether any of us thinks it’s moral or not because nation states are amoral and unfeeling entities. The only thing that matters is power and who wields it; the power to stop Russian aggression is not held by the citizens of NATO countries, that’s my point. The power to stop NATO aggression, on the other hand, does fall on those of us who live within the NATO world (I mean, if you believe liberal democracy works, which it objectively doesn’t but that’s another discussion). So basically what I’m saying is that Russia won’t stop the war on NATO’s terms because Russia obviously will win by attrition anyway (at the cost of even more slaughter), so it’s ridiculous to suggest that Ukrainians should keep throwing themselves in the meat grinder for no other reason than to weaken Russia, a military objective that only matters to the ruling class of NATO countries. They should take the peace deal, put the guns down and go home.
Sounds like they need to be in the fucking ground, then.
Maybe in the Hague. I don’t entirely think it’s the fault of the average Russian solider, although I’m not sure what else could be done if they’re coming over to kill a bunch of people other than to kill them first. But yes, the people who are planning not to stop for good can certainly get stopped in other ways than them one day deciding they’re open to the idea.
No they won’t. They’re terrified of opposing NATO, which is why they react with the same “don’t you dare call the cops” mentality/reaction as an abusive husband does, whenever they think someone in their orbit might be thinking of getting protection from NATO.
Of course, the whole thing is stupidly counterproductive if the goal was for their neighbors to stay uninvolved with NATO. The sum result of their actions in Ukraine is that any country with half a brain (and uncorrupted leaders) anywhere near them is looking around for any and all security guarantees they could get from anyone. Which means NATO.
Tell the truth? Be open to talking to people who disagree with you, and be honest about where you got your own arguments, so that we can have a fact-based discussion? Nobody here is going to be in control of whether the war continues or not. We’re just talking about what happens, and to me it is offensive when someone comes in with a wild skewed narrative that serves the invader and oppressor. That doesn’t mean I think me arguing back is going to “do” anything, it’s just how I operate.
They are absolutely not doing that. You may sincerely think that Russia somehow “wants peace” and those dastardly people-who-got-invaded are preventing them from packing their shit and going back across the border. But I think you at least owe it to other people in the comments here to have a real discussion about why you think the US is sabotaging peace talks, and hear out their reasons why they say they are absolutely not doing that.